How We Develop Ourselves: The Professional Development of Faculty Developers

On this episode of the Academic Medicine Podcast, Heather Billings, PhD, MA, Anthony Gaynier, EdD, MS, Rachel Moquin, EdD, MA, and Stacey Pylman, PhD, MA, discuss the role of the faculty developer. They explore new competencies for faculty developers, the professionalization of the field, and tools faculty developers can use to self-assess their performance and growth over their careers.

This episode is now available through Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and anywhere else podcasts are available.

A transcript is below.

Read the articles discussed in this episode:

Transcript

Toni Gallo (00:02):

Welcome to the Academic Medicine Podcast. I’m Toni Gallo. On today’s episode, I’m joined by Doctors Heather Billings, Anthony Gaynier, Stacey Pylman, and Rachel Moquin. They are part of the author team on two recent articles looking at faculty development and specifically the profession of faculty developers. Those articles are “Faculty Developers in Academic Medicine: Roles and Competencies in Times of Change” and “Exploring Faculty Self-Assessment on Clinician Educator Milestones: Insights from a Multi-Institutional Study.” In our conversation today, we’ll talk about the role of the faculty developer and how the profession is changing. We’ll also explore the competencies our guests developed and how faculty developers view their own performance across their careers. So thank you all for being on the podcast today. I’m looking forward to our conversation. Let’s just start with some introductions. Heather, could you get us started?

Heather Billings (01:07):

Yes, thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to be here today. I’m joining you from Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, where I serve as assistant professor in medical education, director of faculty development, and co-director for our Academy of Educational Excellence.

Anthony Gaynier (01:25):

My name is Anthony Gaynier. I’m a leadership development program leader here at the AAMC. And prior to that, I spent nine years at Wayne State University School of Medicine in Detroit, Michigan.

Stacey Pylman (01:35):

Hello everybody. I am Stacey Pylman and I am at Michigan State University, the College of Human Medicine in East Lansing and Grand Rapids, Michigan. And I am the director of continuing medical education and educator development there. And I’m also an associate professor in the Office of Medical Education Research and Development.

Rachel Moquin (01:57):

Hi everyone. I’m Rachel Moquin. I am at Wash U in St. Louis in the Department of Anesthesiology and Vice Chair for Academic Affairs and Professional Development.

Toni Gallo (02:05):

Welcome to the podcast everyone. I want to start our conversation with a very basic question. As you were doing this work and in your own professional role, how do you define faculty development?

Rachel Moquin (02:22):

That’s a big question and we spend a lot of time, actually this group and some of our other collaborators trying to figure out how to do that. We’ve written a lot about this. We published an in reply article that we titled Clarifying the Definition of Faculty Development in Academic Medicine where we tried to do just that. And then recently there’s a new publication in the journal Medical Education titled When I Say Faculty Development, we’re working on a reply to that as well. So I think this is a great opening question because the field is filled with people who are trying to define it.

Stacey Pylman (02:55):

Yeah, that’s a really good point, Rachel. And I also want to add that faculty development can mean so many different things to different people. It’s quite encompassing when you think of faculty development. For some people, it just means career development, working towards RPT. And then for others, it means a whole broad array of different development opportunities like educator development, leadership development, wellness development, technology development. It can really go across many different topical areas.

Rachel Moquin (03:31):

Yeah. And it’s usually addressed all of those topics with people think of programming, workshops, webinars, bringing people together and doing some sort of educational component. But we also think it’s important to think about how faculty development compasses culture work and networking and brokering connections for people, providing them with resources or supporting scholarship or helping with even things like change management or institutional culture or initiatives. So I think sometimes the definition can feel kind of narrow. It’s just people in a room doing a workshop together, but really we like to think about it as this big broad scope of practice in this profession.

Toni Gallo (04:07):

I think along those lines then, as you all were developing the competencies that you lay out in one of the Academic Medicine articles we’re talking about today, those competencies are really broad. They cover, I mean everything from instructional design and assessment to technology, change management, logistics, administration. So you’ve captured all of those different aspects, which is a lot for any one person. Probably an individual could not do all of the things that you lay out. So could you talk about how you think about those competencies in terms of for an individual, for a team? How does that all fit together?

Heather Billings (04:49):

Toni, that’s such a great question and one that we grapple with as an author group. There are a lot of different capabilities that we think every faculty developer really needs at some level, the ability to communicate effectively or facilitate learning, solve problems, behave professionally and so forth. We also expect that at the team level that there needs to be a coordination of those areas of expertise. Do we collectively have the capabilities to meet the needs, the evolving needs really of our educators? And so no one individual can do all of these things well, but having these competencies provides a common language for us as faculty developers, for our institutions who we’re asking them to support multidisciplinary, multi-profession teams to not only engage, create, facilitate faculty development programming, but also build the education faculty development systems that will support the education that’s happening within the institutions.

Stacey Pylman (06:09):

Yeah. And in addition to that, Heather, I’m also thinking about the fact that the competencies, they can be used as a way to self-assess and really develop a growth plan for somebody who’s interested in faculty development and growing in that area. They’re able to look at the different competencies and say, “What am I really great at doing and what do I want to work on and maybe learn further?” But it also can be used as a tool. I know for myself, when I was going up for promotion, it was really difficult to explain what I do as a profession to a college that is looking at RPT packets for people who are clinician educators or they’re basic scientists. And then you have this faculty developer and what is it exactly that she does and how do I know if she’s doing it well? And these competencies can be a way to describe and to show what I am doing to provide artifacts that show I’m doing it well. So it can be really useful as a guide that way too.

Rachel Moquin (07:15):

Yeah. When I’m thinking about how I use our own list of competencies, like you were saying, Toni, it’s a big list. And I think when I think about, oh, I need to be able to do all of these things, it’s really overwhelming and impossible. So I use it to reflect on what are my strengths? Where do I see myself having strengths in these competencies and where do I want to grow? So I also identified to Stacey’s point where my growth areas are, but then I also look around at my team and I think, okay, what are the strengths of the people on my team? And when I’m adding to my team or I’m looking for collaborators, I use this list to identify, oh, this is not my wheelhouse, so I need to find someone whose it is and make sure that we’re building those connections and the collaboration opportunities.

(07:54):

And so I think at a leadership level even, these are useful because you can think about who are the pieces that you have, who are the players on the board and where are your gaps and where are your strengths, which I think offers some insight too.

Anthony Gaynier (08:07):

In addition to that, oftentimes faculty developers really are crunched for time. We have to support a large number of faculty. So really knowing what you’re really good at and what you can rely on your teammates for is very important. I know when I put together the table for that paper, it was very humbling to look at all the different competencies and really to self-assess on that. And I think it’s great to know that it’s not a laundry list, but it is more like a menu that we can take what we’re great at and then rely on our team for other things.

Toni Gallo (08:33):

Have you all, or I guess in what ways have you all used the competencies already? You’ve mentioned a couple things, but anything else? Have you used them with your teams or shared with your institution or anything like that?

Stacey Pylman (08:46):

I will say that we did bring the competencies to different conferences where we had a bunch of faculty developers there with us so that we could talk about those different competencies. And we also tried to start mapping out what would a growth trajectory look like in certain competency areas in sub-competencies, thinking about what would a beginning faculty developer or a novice be able to do versus somebody who’s been doing this a long time? How could you grow across these different areas? So we’ve been working on that, trying to develop milestones, if you will, that would fit these. It’s tough work. It’s very involved because sometimes there’s no one right answer or one clear trajectory of how people grow in these different areas, but we have found that it’s well received from many of the people that do the same work as us and that we have done a nice job of covering all the different aspects of the work that we do.

Heather Billings (09:48):

And can I just say too, it was very serendipitous, I think, that we were working on manuscripts specific to self-assessment using the Clinician Educator Milestones at the same time as we were reflecting on our own profession as faculty developers and what those competencies were. And we looked to our community, as Stacey just mentioned, and spent a year really inviting insight and help with validating and honing in on the different competencies as shared by our colleagues in the field of faculty development. We also thought about then how do we use these? And we’d be remiss not to say that we also sought out some insight from AI. So if we’re struggling in these areas or if we are personally motivated to further develop our skills in a particular area like navigating change or financial acumen within our medical institutions, which can be necessary for faculty developers to be more familiar with sometimes as they’re developing systems, then what resources would be out there that we might want to explore. So it’s been really full circle from self-assessment to defining to seeking out resources.

Anthony Gaynier (11:17):

I think that’s a great point because as faculty developers, we want to do more than just write a paper. We want to actually make change, and that’s kind of what we’re trying to do with all these. It starts with a self-assessment. We do some other things and we’re like, how can we really make an impact?

Toni Gallo (11:29):

So for a faculty developer who is listening to this, I guess what would you recommend to them when they see this paper with the competencies that you’ve developed? Are there initial things that you would recommend they do or how they kind of approach it? I’m sure the… people are thinking, what would I go to AI for? What kind of resources would I be looking for? So what recommendations do you all have?

Heather Billings (11:57):

Can I just jump in really quick and then I’ll throw out to Rachel and say what we’re not suggesting is that there is an individual that is a superhero in all 12 of these domains and that really the goal is to build capable individuals who know how to function well within capable faculty development teams in support of their academic institutions, missions and goals. But I’ll throw it to Rachel who I know has more specifics.

Rachel Moquin (12:30):

I was going to just say that I think one of the things we wanted this paper to do was help give faculty development that sort of professional grounding. It is a profession. And so I think what I hope for a new or emerging faculty developer in the field is that it gives you some ground to stand on to say this isn’t a hobby or this isn’t like a side gig that sometimes I put on my, I’ll dabble in faculty development, but really it’s a profession in its own right. And so I think just that mindset is what we were hoping for for people. And then to use that to advocate for yourself in the profession. Here are my strengths as a professional faculty developer from this competency list, here is where I shine. And then to Heather’s point there, then communicating what your needs are or what the institution needs are and where you need to collaborate with other people or identify partners or resources or folks who can help you shore up in those other spaces.

(13:22):

But really just that recognition that it’s a whole profession and that no one person can do all of the things that it encompasses. So both giving you that boost of this is a firm place to plant yourself in a profession and then recognizing that we all lean on each other to fill different pieces of the puzzle.

Stacey Pylman (13:41):

And I wanted to add to that too, that there are people who identify as occasional faculty developers and that is okay. So we’re not saying that everybody has to fully identify as a faculty developer and that’s their main work like some of us in this podcast, but that there are these occasional faculty developers, which Pat O’Sullivan and Dr. Irby wrote about in an article, that sometimes they’re invited in by faculty developers like us to say, “Hey, would you like to partner with us and do some faculty development with us?” Which is fantastic. We love faculty developers like that to work with us. And they might not look at this list and think, “Wow, I really want to grow in all of these areas.” But we as faculty developer, let’s say mentors or sometimes seen as leaders, we can come alongside them and say, “You do a really nice job with this. Have you considered growing in faculty development and doing more of this?” So I do feel like it’s a way for us to invite others into our field.

Rachel Moquin (14:45):

Yeah, I think knowing the people at your institution who fill those areas that maybe you don’t have the expertise in and bringing them in as a partner for your faculty development efforts is an exact great use case for these and to partner with folks who do faculty development in the areas that they’re passionate about and how they can come alongside us in that work. That’s a great point, Stacey.

Toni Gallo (15:06):

As you were developing these competencies, I know as you described in the article, you went to a number of conferences, you engaged with a large community. Was there a sort of general consensus about what a faculty developer is, what competencies they should have? Was there disagreement? I’m curious how those conversations went.

Stacey Pylman (15:30):

Oh, they were robust conversations. I could tell you that. At one of the workshops that we did, we had them actually write down on sticky notes all the different things that they would say if they were defining a faculty developer or talking about what they would do. And our research team as a group, I mean, we sat down with these sticky notes and tried to start categorizing all these different things that they said. And yeah, there was disagreement sometimes, mostly just about what are the terms for the different things that we do. But really, if you see one faculty developer, their job is going to be so different than another faculty developer just based on what their institution needs. So it’s so context dependent that we really need to reach out across the world. We did this at a conference over in Europe too, just to really ask people in a variety of institutions, in a variety of contexts, what is it that a faculty developer does? How would you define a faculty developer? And that’s how we put these competencies together.

Toni Gallo (16:42):

I think this feeds into the other article that we’re going to talk about today where you looked at the Clinician Educator Milestones in talking to faculty developers, clinician educators about their own kind of professional development. Some of the things I thought that were interesting, you found 70% of the respondents had no formal training in medical education and about 70% also weren’t familiar with the milestones at all. But in looking at people’s career trajectories, they rated themselves higher as they had more experience, as they had more training. Rachel, I think you mentioned the professionalization of the world of faculty development. Maybe you can reflect on where the field is now and where might it go in terms of supporting faculty developers throughout their career, whether they’re that emerging person or that senior person who does have a lot of experience.

Heather Billings (17:43):

I can jump in here and then welcome Rachel if you have supportive comments or conflicting ideas even. But I’ll say as I look at the competency framework, and again, similar to what we found with the Clinician Educator Milestones, is that really it’s one part of the professionalization of the work that we’re doing, not an endpoint of, okay, now we’ve defined it. And that kind of gets to what Stacey was saying too, that this is really an ongoing conversation and will continue to evolve as the needs of our medical educators or health professions educators evolve. And the priorities and areas of opportunities for our medical institutions and patient care itself as it evolves, how must faculty developers change in order to meet the needs of our primary stakeholders, which are educators?

(18:46):

And so professionalism or the professionalization of our field will really always require scholarship, rigorous exploration of what we’re doing. Is it impactful? What are the outcomes that we can collect or the data that we can use to demonstrate that impact? And when it isn’t impactful, how do we use that information to change and remain relevant and scalable and feasible to attend or participate or engage in faculty development programming?

(19:22):

And then also strong communities of practice and learning with and from one another because as Stacey mentioned, when you see one faculty developer, you’ve seen one faculty developer and we need the insight and wisdom from our colleagues in order to keep us relevant and aware of demands, needs, opportunities that may not be on our radar. We also are constantly talking to our leaders and needing to demonstrate what our roles are and who’s on our teams and the return on investment for the institution. And that’s why we also look at faculty development as an influencer within the system and wanting to work and partner closely with our leaders very early on as they’re establishing priorities and thinking about challenges that might be forthcoming for faculty and medical educators in the institution.

Anthony Gaynier (20:26):

It was really interesting that we did find that 70% of the clinician educators were unaware of the CEMs. The Clinician Educator Milestones are a comprehensive list of 20 plus different roles and responsibilities that clinician educators are responsible to do. So as a faculty developer, it was really helpful to identify this tool. So what I did when I got into my role at Wayne State as a faculty developer, I wanted to do a needs assessment for just my institution in the first place. So I was like, oh wow, I’ll need to make a survey. I’ll need to see if I can get it validated. I need to check all these things. So I did a lit review and found this and I was like, wow, this is way better than anything that I could do. Luckily, my teammates here decided that they thought it was a good idea and we did it on a much larger scale or identified that 70% of us, those surveyed were unaware of this, and it’s our job as faculty developers to use the tools at our disposal and to ensure that we are making it known to everyone in the profession.

(21:20):

So I think that’s probably the biggest finding of our paper from that is that we need to do a better job advertising this and using this for self-assessment and then to create these precision growth plans. So if you’re self-assessment, you should identify your areas of weakness and if it’s valuable for your career, identify the areas that you can spend some time in lifelong learning and growth development in those areas.

Rachel Moquin (21:42):

We’re doing some thinking and some work right now exploring hard trends in faculty development and in medical education and trying to future cast a little bit where the field is going. And tools like the Clinician Educator Milestones I think are going to be really important based on what we’re finding is that as things evolve, we’re seeing a shift in faculty development, maybe moving away from these kind of one-stop workshops or quick hits of let’s see what clinicians we can get in the room on this specific day to do this topic and then we’ll send them back, but more modeled off of the kind of precision education, precision faculty development, so taking faculty development to where the people are, what this specific individual or this team or division or clinical area needs. And so the tools like the Clinician Educator Milestones, I think really set the stage nicely for that more individualized development because you can assess, you can self-assess, you can assess with teams and then really target those competencies that are needed in that specific area. So I think really exciting that those could be leveraged in the direction that we think maybe the field is kind of shifting.

Anthony Gaynier (22:48):

Yeah. On that note, Rachel, our group that we’re working together with is… after this paper, we decided that it wasn’t enough to identify where clinician educators self-assessed and that 70% were unaware. So our job now is to really identify a way that we can really help clinician educators improve if they want to do this. One thing that we’re researching right now is an AI tool that we created that is trained on the Clinician Educator Milestones, the supplemental guide, and the literature that’s out there. And that the idea is that you would take a self-assessment on the Clinician Educator Milestones, you would interact with our AI tool, and it would help you identify a precision growth plan for yourself. So you identify some of your areas and it would give you some goals and some resources that you could work on. So we’re really trying to go above and beyond.

(23:30):

As faculty developers, we want to make the impact, just identifying that people where they surveyed themselves isn’t enough. We really want to make a difference. So this is what we’re really passionate about is doing this and hopefully we’ll have this paper published in the next few months. We haven’t yet started, but we’re getting close to finishing up our survey collection.

Toni Gallo (23:47):

What are some other next steps you all are thinking about now that you have this baseline, you sort of understand where people are, and is it building communities? Is it raising awareness? What are you all thinking about? Where do you want to go now?

Anthony Gaynier (24:04):

Well, I think the first thing why we wanted to do this was a needs assessment. So if someone was brand new to faculty development, they could look at our paper and be like, “Well, the first place I should start is medical education scholarship because that was the lowest rated on the survey.” So we could start with doing a PowerPoint there or those kind of things. I think obviously collaboration is something that has really helped my career and learning from my teammates here. They have a ton of expertise and it’s really impossible for one person to do it all. So really finding that community and relying on others and using their expertise is really what’s good for everyone.

Stacey Pylman (24:37):

Rachel mentioned that we were doing some of these hard trends research, thinking about where is healthcare going, so where is medical education going? So where then do faculty developers need to focus our attention because they are all so intertwined. And when we look at that data, we really are thinking about the future is changing. Of course, we know artificial intelligence has really become quite a player in our fields, but in addition to that, we’re really thinking about as data increases in our access to data, what does that do for how we respond? How do we use that data? That’s where we come up with this idea of precision faculty development, just like we’re using the data for precision medical education.

(25:25):

But we’re also thinking about how in the future, as artificial intelligence becomes more commonplace in healthcare and people are starting to worry about what is the future role of a physician or a medical educator going to be, we as faculty developers are there to walk alongside these people and help them think about their identities and what their role is going to be in the future and to help them think about what does a human bring to the practice in these different fields that technology can’t.

(25:59):

And then maybe thinking about how our faculty development really needs to focus on human connection and thinking about how you help people grow and ways to communicate, whether it be to patients or students or to colleagues, but also how do you develop skills like empathy and compassion and those sorts of things. So as the field changes, we as faculty developers, we need to be ready and watching and pivoting and thinking about what do our medical educators need from us.

Toni Gallo (26:35):

Along those lines, I’m curious about you all personally and your own professional development and thinking about over the course of your career, what has professional development looked like for you? What’s been helpful? You can talk about now, at the beginning, wherever you’d like to focus, but we’ve kind of mentioned having the milestones and thinking about what does the field look like, but for you personally, what has that looked like?

Heather Billings (27:06):

I’ll jump in first and say while my own development benefited from some formal education, a doctorate in adult education, and I have also another degree in organizational psychology that really helped. Honestly, the biggest propellant of my career and my success as a faculty developer has been collaborating with others and also having very visible support from my leadership within my institution. I was very blessed to have department level and dean level support for faculty development, and they helped often plow a bit of a pathway for when faculty development was necessary within particular parts of the institution. And having also some sponsorship and mentorship for my own academic promotion was incredibly important for providing that level of credibility that can often be necessary within this. Back when I started, it was a very emerging field. So now the more formalization of the profession of faculty development is a lot farther along than when I started. So those are some of the things that have helped me personally and that I strive to ensure that I’m providing that level of support for the next generation of faculty developers.

Stacey Pylman (28:50):

Yeah, I completely agree with Heather. I think that the collaboration that I have received from these research groups, finding, I always say I find my people, my faculty developer people, often faculty developers are isolated at their own institutions. So finding people at conferences and through organizations that are doing the same work. I know for all of us on this call, the CGEA Faculty Development Special Interest Group was a big place where we came together and found resources with each other, shared ideas, formed these collaborative research groups and worked on proposals together, all of that good stuff. And that is where a lot of growth happened.

(29:38):

And I want to say, just like Heather did, she was saying we want to pass it on to the next generation, but the mentoring we received from some of the people who have been in faculty development for some time who have served as those mentor authors for us in our research group and helped us think about has already been done and how we can build on it has been just a gift. And I want to say on these two articles, for sure, Deb Simpson was a huge gift to us in mentoring us and helping us think about all the things we need to think about with scholarship. And John Mahan, who was part of the team that created the Clinician Educator Milestones and then helped us think about how are we going to research and write about this. It’s just been a gift.

Rachel Moquin (30:28):

Yeah, I don’t have much to add to what Heather and Stacey have said because when I was thinking about an answer to this, it’s all the same words. It’s finding my people, it’s building networks, it’s leaning into the collaborative nature of the work instead of remaining siloed. That makes it more fun and it makes everything we do better. And when I think about my own growth early in this work, grappling a little bit with what my professional identity is and using tools like the competencies to think about, okay, where are my strengths? And then standing confidently to say, okay, that’s something I do well or that’s something I’m interested in when you hear other people talking about those things. So a little bit of it is being willing to put yourself out there to forge those connections. But then the vast majority of it is people who come before you who are willing to say your name in rooms when you’re not there. So if you’re a person who you said my name in a room when I’m not there and you’re listening, thank you. But bringing other people into the work and just building all of those bridges. Like I said, it makes everything more fun and it makes everything we do, I think, stronger. So that’s been huge in my own development.

Anthony Gaynier (31:32):

Yeah, everyone said everything that I was going to say. The community has been amazing and really just pushing each other to want and do more. If you have a really good idea, this group really wants you to see if it really is by not just doing it at your institution, but doing it at multiple and really testing out what your idea is and to really get the feedback to test it. But I think that this collaboration is the number one answer here for our group.

Toni Gallo (31:55):

You all sort of touched on scholarship just now. Anthony, you mentioned the lowest rated milestone in your study was the scholarship one. I’m curious what you all think, why do you think that was and what’s missing? We’re on an academic medicine journal podcast here. We obviously care a lot about scholarship and supporting scholars and new work that’s happening. So who do you think is missing from specifically thinking about faculty developers and building scholarship?

Anthony Gaynier (32:29):

Yeah, in our Clinician Educator Milestone survey, we’re asking them to do almost 20 different things in a clinician educator. So they can really be excellent teachers and clinicians without necessarily turning it into scholarship oftentimes. And I think there’s a ton of untapped scholarship that goes on. I think something that sometimes happens is you do something really good at your institution, but you might not have the time to do it on a larger scale or to test it. I think also there’s something with the imposter syndrome that comes sometimes really taking the step to go out with limited time you have to try a workshop or a proposal or a paper. I think that falls into it. And I think that’s where clinician educators can really rely on our faculty developers to assist in that process.

Rachel Moquin (33:08):

I think when you look at the literature around specifically barriers to education scholarship, the number one thing that rises to the top is time when you’re busy with all of the other things that either clinicians or educators or faculty developers, all of us have all of these balls in the air, scholarship takes a lot of investment of time. And so we lean on our collaborative networks, our communities of practice to spread that workload out. But I think the more intentional we can be about giving time and space to people to pursue scholarship, I think the better. But then when you provide the time, then you also need to provide the development and the tools and the resources. So I think those two things from a structural standpoint, I think rise to the top when I think about why this is probably among the lowest rated that we see.

Toni Gallo (33:58):

Well, thank you all so much for being here today. We have just a couple minutes left, so if there’s anything else anybody wants to add, anything from these two papers or other work that you all are doing that you think listeners would be interested in, anything we didn’t touch on yet, we’ll wrap up with that.

Anthony Gaynier (34:15):

Thanks so much for having us.

Heather Billings (34:18):

Yeah, sorry. Yes, thank you. And I’ll just say, especially because it allows us as medical educators or faculty developers to think a little bit about not only how we help to develop others, our trainees and for faculty developers, our education colleagues, but also how we develop ourselves and to be really intentional about that as well.

Toni Gallo (34:41):

Well, for everyone listening, definitely check out the two papers that we talked about here. They’re available on academicmedicine.org to read. And keep an eye out, I feel like at an upcoming conference, this group is probably going to be talking about their competencies and some of their other work, so look for them on the meeting agenda and you can get involved too. So thanks so much everyone.

Stacey Pylman (35:03):

Thank you.

(35:04):

Thank you, Toni.

(35:05):

Thank you, Toni.

Toni Gallo (35:07):

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